Garry Lee - Small Business Owners - Take Control of your Marketing - podcats for Small Business Heroes
Garry Lee is a CEO, Board Advisor and Founder. He is passionate about helping businesses to grow, supporting owners and using the power of marketing and data to challenge the norm.
Tony Radford 0:03
Hi, everybody. Today I am talking with Garry Lee of thirtythreepercent.co.uk.
Garry, thanks very much for being with us. How are you today?
Garry Lee 0:14
I'm alright, thank you very much for having me on.
Tony Radford 0:16
I've looked at your website and it's very interesting for me in many ways, especially for small business owners. I was just wondering if you could tell us a little bit about your business?
Garry Lee 0:25
No problem. So I started Thirty Three Percent with my business partner James in I suppose June we started it officially although we'd been talking about it for a couple of months.
I used to run a marketing automation business I was the CEO there have been at the business for a long time. So I was sort of, you know, I was I was a quite a large shareholder in the business and, and we service big clients Sainsbury's, JD sports, Travelodge, people like that.
So it was great and, you know, very successful, we grew it from very little to 50 million plus. And, you know, it'd been a really big part of my life. But I started to become frustrated, because we weren't having much of an impact on people. And I really wanted to start having more meaningful clients.
So we started to work with a few smaller businesses, and I really enjoyed it, but ultimately didn't really fit what Red Eye did my old company. So in the end, I spoke to the Board and said 'Well, I think it's time for me to leave, move on, give others a chance'. But and that's really where me and James, who had already started talking about, James would run a marketing agency in similarly, what we're relatively big clients, and we both wanted to start working with small businesses, in particular, small business owners.
And so the premise behind Thirty Three Percent is that we help small business owners take control of their marketing. You know, I've, I've been on the other side, and people have paid me a lot of money to help run their marketing. And I feel like a lot of what small business owners do, is, is translatable to what the big brands are doing.
And I think a lot of when I spoke started speaking to small business owners, and we've got friends that are small business owners, right, that's part of where this came from. And they were they, for example, would say 'Oh, well, you know, we, we don't really need brand, because the brand is a big brand thing. It's not really what small businesses do.'
But actually a brand is about your, it's about your company, it's about who you are, it's about your tone of voice, but it's also about your service is about your customer services, it's all these things. It's not a logo, it's not a name. And I think that's what people get fixated on the fact that a lot of these things that big brands do are actually untouchable by small brands. But we wanted to show that that's not the case.
So really, that's where it came from. That's where the idea of it, we're running webinars, workshops, masterminds, that kind of stuff. And now we're adding downloadable courses. Also, that we can help small business owners in particular, run their marketing. And a lot of cases, these are people that have started up businesses from scratch. And they're almost scared of marketing, because there's too many too much choice. And I think what we're trying to do is shrink that choice down.
Tony Radford 3:07
Sounds really good. I read on your website somewhere that, you know, one of your concepts is that people do marketing in 30 minutes a day.
Garry Lee 3:18
Yes, that is the ultimate goal or promise you as long as you're probably not selling already, we're actually writing a book about it as well, which is taking up quite a bit of our time in the background.
So the idea is small business owners a time poor, you're a small business owner yourself, we all know plenty of them. And there's probably loads people listening that are small business owners.
And I think the key with that is that the small business owner doesn't have a lot of time, if we can. And don't get me wrong, it requires prep to get to this point. But if you can understand your audience properly, if you can know what channels are so that you're not trying to do every single channel, I think that's one of the problems.
A prime example of how you can do in 30 minutes a day is you don't need to do every single social media tool. Going as an example there are we counted it the other day, there are over 40 different ways that you can do marketing, if you include all the different chat services, messaging, email, social media, direct mail, all the offline versions of it, all that kind of stuff. There's over 40.
But the reality is, for most small businesses, they only need two or three, because that's where their audiences. And so step one is always what makes you special. And then step two is where's your audience, who is your audience, and if you can know that stuff, then what you end up doing is being able to do things in a more condensed fashion.
And it's also about making better use of your content. So if you write one big wheels called superhero contents, right, one big superhero content at the start of the week, you can then disseminate that down into loads of other content. So you can write one blog, for example, that maybe takes you an hour to write, but then you can take a quote or an image out of that and then path paragraph out of it.
And you just stick those straight onto different social media channels. So you've got constant content going all the way, because that's the thing that always scares people when they when I say 30 minutes a day, that kind of thinking, well, I've got, you know, it takes me 30 minutes just to write one post, well, if you've already done the work, you don't need to, you can just copy is a there's a lot of there's a lot of repetitive work that's done that you can automate in these situations.
Tony Radford 5:24
That's really, really excellent. Because one of the messages in my app <a href="https://myproactivebusiness.com">Proactive is to focus on two things a day</a>. We call it daily rituals And then give that a go for 31 working days and see where you are after that.
And, you know, because I think people, I think overload is a massive problem. In fact, I did research, you know, sent an email, what's your biggest problem? The second biggest problem was overwhelmed for small business owners, they completely overwhelmed. So if you're trying to keep five social media channels going, and actually, it's only a small part of your daily working life, you're going to just you're going to be spending every evening, your weekends, you know, yes. So absolutely, yeah, really, really great idea, and what you have there.
And of course, there's the other thing is, you know, somebody sits down there that their main focus is their product or their service. And when they sit down to do some marketing, it's like, where do I start? You know, so people got some strategy, and then daily plan is just a really great thing. Or your businesses?
Are they in any specific industry niche? Are they product services?
Garry Lee 6:30
No, not really, no, because we, we didn't go out with a specific goal of life, I've in my life, I've tended to work with retail and with travel, and with predominant e commerce based businesses. But actually now what we're, what we're seeing is, obviously, in the small business environment, there's just such a wide range, you know, we could be working with accountants one day, we have an amazing woman the other day, who's translated, basically a hobby of art, or graphic art. And she's, and what we did is we help her to niche down, so she was just doing general art, but she's ended up doing horror art. And because she's got that niche, she's suddenly got this custom following, that's really, you know, really engaged in it.
But then we, you know, we're like, tomorrow, we've got a, we got a very big kickoff meeting with a charity.
So I don't think there's any particularly it ultimately is it's it's small business owners, it's, it's businesses that are a certain size, we tend to find is less about the niche, and it's more about the situation with the owner. If the owner is in charge of marketing, it doesn't really understand it, or, and I love your use of the word overwhelm, because James always uses the term, which I don't think is proper English we have overcome overwhelm.
And that is a lot of what we do. It's Yes, business owners overwhelmed. Or in some cases, it's a business owner that's delegated marketing to a junior member of the team. But that junior member team is not fully qualified, and the business owner wants to be able to guide them. And so they need to understand enough themselves so that they can actually guide them. So it's more to do with the circumstance of the business than it is any particular niche, I think, right?
Tony Radford 8:09
Yeah. Great. Okay. Did you say you started in June this year?
Garry Lee 8:16
Yes. We officially kicked off in June.
Tony Radford 8:19
Right. Okay. So that's not that long ago? What's been your biggest challenge so far?
Garry Lee 8:25
So that's good question.
The biggest challenge so far is probably the following our own advice. I think what happens when you start a business, and it'd been such a long time, since I started a business, you try and do everything at once, and you described your brilliantly - I love the concept you've got in the app of just two things a day, which is I think, when you try the multitasking is a stupid phrase. Nobody can actually multitask, not even my wife, and she's, she's amazing.
But nobody can actually multitask. All you're doing is task switching. And every time you switch a task, I think there's some evidence, it takes 23 minutes to get going again on the new task. And I'm preaching to the converted. I know on this, but I think what we found is we tried to do too much.
And we wanted to, because we had so much initial interest, we had these great plans that we were going to take our time we were going to meet a few people test out a few concepts. And then suddenly we put a few posts on LinkedIn, with our networks, and on Facebook, and then suddenly we had this flood of people coming in asking us to do stuff. We didn't want to say no, because we were like, well, we're off and running. We've got to try and do stuff. I think we try to do too much too soon. And as a result, we didn't take enough time to niche ourselves down at the start, which is something we now absolutely done and we're very comfortable with.
I think it's just, you know, when it's the enthusiasm I think of a new business. That's been my biggest thing is is the enthusiasm of just wanting to do everything and being really excited by I think that's probably the biggest The biggest thing that we found since we started.
Tony Radford 10:04
Right. Okay, great. Thank you. And what would you say I know, it's early days, but what would you say is the next step for your business going into 2021.
Garry Lee 10:15
The big thing that we wanted to do from the start is very much the goal for 2021 is a community. The whole point of this was to create each one of the courses and the workshops we're doing, we want to create mini communities where everybody that's sharing the course with us, has a network of people that they can immediately talk to who are in similar situations. So what we do, for example, and maybe I'll talk about it more later. But we put an offer out for November, that anybody who is struggling during lockdown in a small business can get a free workshop. And what we've done with that, and we've we've had more responses than maybe we expected, but what we've had is that we've started putting them into groups of similar problems.
So that a,it helps with the course because then we're delivering the content relevant to the people. But then the idea is that at the back of that, there'll be a to share ideas. But then the ultimate goal is to create this overall community of small business owners that, again, are overwhelmed by marketing, so that partly they can continue interacting with James and myself, but also they can interact with their peers.
And ask each other questions. I've personally been on, particularly in the last six months been on a lot of Facebook and LinkedIn groups, with other business owners and small businesses and, and some of them have been useful, but a lot of them are just full of people selling their own stuff. Whereas What I want is a community where no one's selling their own products or services, what they're doing is just helping each other out. So that's, that's really probably the next step for us is to get that community hub together, and then then telling us what it is that we want, that they want to learn that we can create courses for.
Tony Radford 11:56
Now, it sounds really good. Do you have in mind, you know, a platform for that? Is it like a forum?
Garry Lee 12:02
I think at the moment, the plan, the plan was to put was to put together a Facebook group. Because I think it's it's, again, going back to doing what we preach, we've done a lot of research on where our audience is. And the majority of our our audience are spending some time on Facebook in some way, shape, or form. And they find that an easier medium to contact with our other our other main platform is probably LinkedIn, but I don't think LinkedIn groups work. Not I've written a blog all about it. And I'm not a proponent of LinkedIn groups, because I think the way they're handled they, they feel as if they're a little bit of a offshoot, and they don't really fit with the rest of the channel. So So the idea is to, is to probably produce a Facebook group and then start using, we've got a dedicated we use whereby, as a sort of virtual meeting room, start creating groups on there as well, where people can talk on a regular basis.
Tony Radford 12:57
Sounds really fantastic. Look forward to, you know, hearing some more, if you do updates or something on LinkedIn and be great. Yes. Okay, so in terms of, you know, just general business, you're obviously very, very experienced in the marketing industry. And I was just wondering, you know, what is one thing that you wish somebody told you when you started?
Garry Lee 13:21
I think have a look all the way back to when I started out, I wish the one thing, which is sort of part of the reason why we created this company, I think, I wish the one thing somebody told me to focus on was, who is my audience, and what's my niche?
I really do, because I think we just wanted to market to everybody. So we just went to every company. And as a result, we were just very generic. And in the early days, there weren't many we read, I started out as a web analytics company. So there weren't many of them around, so you could sort of get away with it. And that's why we had early success. But then as soon as we started getting quite a few competitors, because we didn't really understand who our target audience was properly.
And because we didn't have a niche, it we went through a fallow period where where essentially, the Americans were just pulling us apart, they'd come over, they released their software and, and realistically, they had bigger budgets. So they had a slightly better products, they had bigger marketing, so they were able to spend money on advertising. And as a result, we until we discovered what our niche was.
And until we discovered who our real target audience was, and our target audience was not big corporates, but it was a mid tier UK, but UK based business that needed both software and support. Once we understood that, then again, growth started to go. So again, it comes back to the age old things in marketing, which is understand your audience understand your niche, you'll do very well because at the end of the day, if you've got the best product in the world, if you're advertising it to the wrong people, then it doesn't really matter.
You know somebody somebody gave a quote and I can't believe it's just sticks in my head. If you just let's just say, and I'm not a big, big politics, man, but let's say Jeremy Corbyn writes a biography, if you start, and it may be the greatest biography that was ever written, but if you advertise that biography on the conservative Facebook page, you're not going to get any sales, because that's not your audience.
And I think that's the thing to remember is, unless you actually know who your audience is, and that's who you target, you won't be successful.
Tony Radford 15:27
Yeah, definitely. No, that's, that's really, really great advice,actually.
Garry Lee 15:30
I can't believe I just use a Jeremy Corbyn quote on that, that's, that's a terrible, terrible example.
Tony Radford 15:40
If somebody gave you 500 pounds to spend on marketing, how would you spend it?
Garry Lee 15:46
Okay, can I assume that they have, I'm going to assume they already have a brand and a website in place. So they don't, that's where you start, let's assume they've got a brand, they've got a website in place, and they know who their audience is, then then I would, I would look at where their audience is, and how best to target them from an advertising perspective.
So for example, James and myself know from all our analysis, our audience is on LinkedIn. And on Facebook, it's also a little bit of Instagram as well, but not not as much. And a lot of it is on Twitter, but I don't see Twitter as a medium where I'm going to spend 500 pounds, so I'd spend that 500 pounds on Facebook, and to a lesser extent, LinkedIn advertising, that's where I would spend it, if I were advising someone to spend 500 pounds, it would be where their audiences, I'll keep banging the same drum, but you've got to know where they are, before you start spending the money.
So one of the things that we've looked at potentially doing is advertising with some small business magazines, for example. But then we have looked into the demographics and the profiles of the people reading those magazines, and they didn't really fit our audience profile. In the same way they weren't.
They weren't really the business owners as much. And it was certainly wasn't business owners who were struggling with marketing. So so that's the reason we didn't but but if we turned around and realized that, yes, 90% of the readership of small business news was small business owners who were struggling with marketing, then that's where we would advertise. And that's what I advocate for people is, is, is, because because one of the things you may do is find local, you know, I'm a big proponent of local, local advertising, some of the best responses we've had to any of the any of the things we've put out or out to you in our local, Facebook and local media groups.
So you know, it's about knowing where your audience is, and then putting your efforts into that. So I mean, that 500 pound is, is in some ways for a small business owner quite a lot of money to spend on some ads, to in other ways, it could go in seconds. So you have to be really careful and don't waste it.
Tony Radford 17:55
You said a couple of interesting things there.
One was about the local advertising. And I've never thought of that, to be honest. And that that's definitely a takeaway. What about LinkedIn ads? I heard they were quite expensive.
Garry Lee 18:13
They are they are I mean, I've, I've been playing with them a little bit over the last six weeks. And they're easy to do, I mean, that essentially, the back ends exactly the same back end as the Facebook ads. But they are they are more expensive. And I think you've got to really know your audience.
Well, so that you can target and nice down a lot more. And I think they also rely on you generally having a good LinkedIn presence as well. So it is it is more expensive. I think it works in a b2b environment reasonably well, if you know what you're doing. But I feel like you have to be a little more experienced a little bit further along.
I wouldn't advocate people start with LinkedIn ads, I would always start unless you know it. I know a couple of people I've helped that basically 99% of their audiences on LinkedIn. And that's where they're getting their business from. That's fine, because then you're all you're doing is you're doubling down on on that channel, you're basically going right, well, I'm hitting that channel, I'm posting a lot, I'm interacting with people. And so the ads is just adding to the brand.
The ads in many ways on LinkedIn ads are actually just more of a brand awareness than they are on other forums. But yes, it is, I can't remember I noticed that the other day, it's three or four times more expensive on average than doing Facebook ads. Right when you don't have a massive amount of money, that's quite a difference. And it's not that they cost more it's just it takes more reach to be able to get conversions because I think there's a little bit chicken and egg though with that slightly because what people are normally advertising on Facebook is normally quicker, smaller product sales. Whereas on LinkedIn, people are normally looking at more complicated, wide ranging services and products that they're trying to push. So I do think there's a natural longer lead time in that sort of thing anyway.
Tony Radford 20:12
Yeah, yeah, I get that. And, yeah, just thinking about Facebook, because obviously, the the organic reach is pretty much the non existence. And that's probably your only way in is that I mean, if I like with the <a href="https://myproactivebusiness.com/Blog/SmallBusinessHeroes>Small Business Heroes</a> podcasts, I generally get between, I don't know, 200, to 400, views and interactions, and it gets shared all down into LinkedIn, on my Facebook page for this podcast, I, I'd be amazed if I get 50 organic views or 100.
Garry Lee 20:45
Facebook has messed around so much with people's timelines, you don't know what you know. And even less, I know, people who've got Facebook pages that have got, well over 50,000 people signed up to them. And they reckon they reach about 10% of most, even through you know, so it's, I found, if you're trying to do organic stuff with Facebook, you're actually better interacting with communities and groups, and actually becoming a part of that community sharing information, being a valued part of the community by you know, helping people that are on it.
By doing that, you eventually then can ask the sort of questions that then can get people to come and actually want to look at your own page and look at what you do. And I think, I think organic can work, it does work very well. And I've we've used it quite successfully, but you have to put quite a bit of effort into it initially to get yourself being part of the community.
So a lot of these groups are very closed and very anti sales messages, which I think is actually a good thing. And it's one of the reasons why Facebook groups work better than LinkedIn groups, which are just pretty much open spam sessions,
Tony Radford 21:57
Yeah, we don't want to get involved in open spam sessions really do we.
So on Facebook, then you're saying that the best way to get some sort of benefit from it would be to just get stuck in and engage with a group. That's basically where your niche market is?
Garry Lee 22:18
Yes, at the end of the day, I think any small business and local marketing is about giving back. And I think the more you give, the more you eventually get back. So it's about being involved in communities and groups that are relevant to you that your audience it participates in, and then sees you actively participating and helping so so you know.
For example, I often will go on the small business forums, and groups, and people will ask questions about marketing. And, and you'll, what I'll say is, I'll see 10, people quickly post up their marketing agency, and then I'll just put at the bottom, you know, you're a small business owner, you don't have a ton of time to work out which one of these agencies to use and be, you probably don't have the budget for them. Here's it, here's a free webinar, read this, hopefully, at the end of it, you'll feel a bit more in control in marketing. And if you want to understand more, click through and have a look at our website.
And I think, you know, it's about offering more free advice to start them on the road. Because I found with our business that, you know, most of the people we've helped, at the start have ended up coming back wanting us to actually actually want to pay us to do something, but initially, pretty much apart from one person, everybody we've initial everybody we've helped so far, we did something for free to start with because a that was part of the mission.
That's why we set off on doing this company, but also I think that's how that's how sales and marketing works. Generally, I think that works in big business, you know, when I when I used to sell, you know, six and seven figure software products. I used to give them something for free, you know, it was value content, it was free audits, whatever else it was would always give something first to build up a relationship before then went in to try and sell the bigger product.
Tony Radford 24:09
Yeah. One thing you said there was, you would mention, you know, we got a free webinar or something. So, so the advice there might be to, to always have something that you can offer. That's an answer to a question in a group.
Garry Lee 24:23
Yes, that Yeah, absolutely. Spot on. Yeah, that that. Generally, we've got some form of blog article free course webinar that we can offer people when they've got a problem on those groups. And the reality is, if if you haven't got that, then you're either in the wrong groups because they're asking lots of questions that you are not relevant to you, or you haven't built out your product range.
Tony Radford 24:48
Right. Okay, great. That's really, really great information. Thank you. Actionable stuff.
How about business mentors? Do you have a business mentor or support group or something like that?
Garry Lee 25:00
I do have I'm very lucky that I've had a I've had two big mentors in my career guy that set up a Red Eye at the very, very start. And I was employee number seven, I think I can't remember exactly when very early doors, but the guy who set it up, and then somebody who took over running the business partway through my tenure there, who was sort of did ultimately become my main mentor, that that he's run multiple business is incredibly knowledgeable, but was always I learned so much from him, both in a practical sense, but also just in how to act around people how to interact, how to manage people, all that kind of stuff, he was incredibly powerful.
And I've spoken to I spoke to him before I decided to leave my old job and do this, because he's the first person I was, you know, I told him what I was going to do. And he just said, "I'm not going to tell you the right or wrong thing, because only you know that but I'll support you in whatever you want to do". Because he you know, he did the same thing he like he, he left after about six years of running the business. So similar to myself, so he understands kind of the process I went through. He's been incredibly powerful.
I think there's a there's a lot of good initiatives, I've been fortunate to mentor a couple of small business owners over the last couple of years, incredibly enjoyable experience. Manchester growth hub is brilliant for that, as an example, relatively local to both of us, where they offer mentoring programs, and there's a lot of them, if you look online, you'll be surprised.
There's a lot of free mentoring groups going on online nowadays, that they'll pair you up. But you know, Manchester growth hub is one example. But there are many more skills, I think the skills group is another one. But they'll basically if you search them out, and explain what you need help with what they often do, and they do pacifically specifically for small business owners, they'll match you up with someone who's got experience in what you've done, and is moved on to the next level.
And that's that, I think, is incredibly powerful. Because I think one of the things is as an owner, and that's part of the reason why we in James did this as a joint venture is that we've both been known as runners of our own company, and it can get quite lonely. And, and you just want somebody to, you know, a great, I had brilliant staff around me. And I felt I felt like I could share anything with them.
But there's something to be said for having someone who's not necessarily in the business. That's why I'm a big proponent of non execs, because I think they're people with lots of experience that you can go to and ask, ask advice from so they understand your business, but they're not sucked into the day to day. So I think they can give a more unbiased opinion. And and, you know, obviously, most small businesses aren't gonna have a non exec. But just having a mentor is almost in some ways getting the best way for small business owner to get a non executive type input and Aleksei I think most people can probably find them online if they do a bit of searching.
Tony Radford 27:56
That's really great answer, actually. So if people were, you know, wondering how to find a way into a mentoring kind of relationship, one place would be for them to find a local growth hub.
Garry Lee 28:06
Yes, yeah, I think I think a local growth, I think, I think the growth hubs is one of the best initiatives for small businesses that I've seen in the last five or six years. I think if you search out your local growth hub, almost certainly they will have some sort of program that will mentor you up with someone.
Tony Radford 28:20
Could you give us one actionable sales tip?
Garry Lee 28:23
It sounds horrible, particularly because a lot of people really struggle with sales. But sales is it's, it's easy, if long as you do it Well. It isn't, it isn't complicated, it isn't really clever and difficult. But it requires you to know what, who you want to sell to, and what pains you're solving.
Because if you know those things, then you focus on those things.
I think the single biggest tip that I probably give anybody, you stopped talking about yourself, or your own product. And I think at any point in the last 10 years, at least once a year you have those reflective moments, you suddenly think, you know what we've gone, we've fallen back into that trap, we're talking about us, again, aren't we we're talking about our product, we're talking about what makes us special. That's not what a customer wants to hear a prospect wants to hear. You understand their problems, you talk in their language.
So you start talking about it, you start talking about the pains that they've got, and they go 'Oh they understand me'.
And then you build on that. And once you got to the point where they go, like these guys understand me they understand the pains I'm doing, then you can start talking about how you solve those problems. And that's when you start talking about your product.
You talk about your product in the sense of solving their problems, you don't talk about that your product or your service, in the sense of helping them. So if I'm trying to sell our course, for example, one of our logos to say we're selling a 50 pound course. If I go in and just start telling people we got this amazing course it's packed full of content, it's got 19 different videos in this hours of content for just 50 pounds and at the end of it, we had to do X and Y it's, that's fine. It'll get you somewhere, it will get you somewhere.
But if I go in and I start in the questions, it's a bit like the Facebook sifting questions you would ask you start going. Is anybody got anybody struggling with this? Is anybody struggling with this? Okay, yeah, no, I find this as well. And actually, I also find we can't do this. Oh, yeah, that will.
That's, that's a problem for us with it. And but by the end of this, you've got to the point, we understand what their problem is, and you start going, if I could give you this to solve this problem, would that help you free up some of your time? Oh, that'd be amazing. I could get that. Well, actually, I've got something and it's only 50 pounds. And then you can watch it. And you can watch it your own time. And and it's that process is it to me sales is always about, find out about understand who your customer is, what their problems are, and then how you solve them.
Tony Radford 30:47
Thank you. That's a really, really great way to describe it, actually. Excellent. Thanks for that.
And also, Garry, thanks for being a really excellent guest on this show. And you've given an amazing amount of value. There's lots of specific things that people could benefit from from this listening through this podcast. What would be the best way for people to get in touch with you?
Garry Lee 31:13
Honestly, the best thing to do if you want to reach out to me directly, and if there's anything I can help people with, then probably search me out on LinkedIn. Just look for Garry Lee. Garry with two hours. I'm fairly easy to find if you put into hours there aren't that many of us on LinkedIn or if you want to understand more about how I mean how me and James can help. Just go to our website Thirty Three Percent all the words no numbers <a href="https://thirtythreepercent.co.uk">thirtythreepercent.co.uk</a>
Tony Radford 31:42
That's thanks for that. And thanks again for being a great guest.
Thanks for having me on.
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Garry Lee - Small Business Owners - Take Control of your Marketing
Garry Lee - Small Business Owners - Take Control of your Marketing - podcats for Small Business Heroes